Conservatives ‘want change’
Alan Duncan is a perspicuous, zealous and goodhumoured man who, if the Conservatives win the forthcoming General Election will, he says be ‘on a mission to start a rehabilitation revolution’. The Shadow Minister for Prisons told Eric McGraw, Managing Editor of Inside Time he was a revolutionary, ‘a sort of Che Guevara of the prison world.’ He began by describing what he regards as the big picture
The big picture
AD: ‘We want a rehabilitation revolution in which we can concentrate on the needs of the offending community in order to reduce repeat offending. Of course some people have to be locked up but we need to appreciate that we have a massive prison population, probably tens of thousands of people are either dependent, either on alcohol or drugs or mentally ill, or both, and we need as much to address their needs as punish them for what they have done. So firstly with prisons I want busy prisons where people learn what they need in order to be able to live. We have to accept that many are ill, indolent or ignorant and these social evils have to be addressed if we are going to give people a chance. So we want to concentrate a lot of effort on having busy prisons and crucially if they walk out of the prison gate with nothing more than forty quid in their pocket and nowhere to live and nothing to support them they are going to come off the cliff edge, get back into trouble and come straight back into prison. So our main policy is really to try and set up a system where they can be equipped while in prison and then properly met or accompanied through the gate.’
‘That means a lot of effort so that they have got somewhere to live, and all those ingredients that the rest of us take for granted are not denied them. Otherwise, all that is going to happen is that they go back again. And so we are looking at payment by results. Basically, rehab and setting people on their feet so they do not reoffend is our key objective. We appreciate the prison estate is crowded and it may be we will need some more places to start with. But our long term objective is to reduce the prison population by reducing reoffending and that’s going to take a lot of effort. I am quite zealous about this. That’s the big picture.’
Women recalled to prison
Q In this issue of Inside Time we highlight the findings of a report by the Griffin Society - an organisation helping women offenders. The Report says that very often women get recalled to prison because they didn’t actually understand the terms and conditions of their early release. The Report says, for example, that they are asked to turn up for meetings without it first being confirmed that they have the fares to travel or that an appointment, for example, doesn’t clash with picking-up their child from school.
“I was in Holloway Prison this morning and the good news is that the imprisoned female population is declining, the diversion from custody recommended by the Corston Report seems to be taking place, and women particularly with dependent children having very short sentences is very destructive and probably doesn’t solve the problem.
But you’re right, some women are recalled and are absolutely baffled as to why. So what we want to see is much more clarity in sentencing. There is a bigger issue of minimum and maximum sentencing of indeterminate sentences but I think it’s equally a big issue in terms of any prisoner knowing when they might be released and what they have to do to be released earlier. And we are in favour of earned early release so that someone who is given a minimum and maximum isn’t just automatically released at the mid point, they have to work their way through self improvement and clear proof of changing their ways and the ability to survive outside prison towards earlier release. And that’s what we want to do. Quite a lot of discretion might be left to the Governor as to the sort of hurdles that might have to be passed in order to clock up earlier release. But we think that a good, a well understood formula of advancement and hence early release is such an important incentive to someone who’s in prison.”
Young Offenders
Q We have a news item in this issue of Inside Time highlighting an IMB report on Felthem YOI. It says that a staggering 10,000 young people a year go through Feltham and they are there for only, on average, one month.
“There is an enormous amount of churn in Feltham but I think what you’re putting your finger on is the fact that you can’t do much with someone on short sentences. There comes a point where a sentence is going to be so short it’s not worth having because it neither punishes nor teaches. And a longer one is necessary if you are ever going to teach someone how to cope with life and improve themselves, so what that throws up is two things the churn of the allocation of where someone is imprisoned and there is perhaps a more specific problem within the youth estate on that one, and the other is whether short sentences do any good at all.
We strongly favour community sentences and an enlightened look at sentencing, like restorative justice, community payback, and all forms of technologically monitored curfewor detention. So, you know, we are very open minded about the whole range of sentences that might be handed down.”
Restorative Justice (bringing together offenders and their victims)
Q Jonathan Aitken (former government minister and former prisoner) in his recent report ’locked up Potential’ referred to restorative justice and the need to have an Act of Parliament to ensure it happens.
“Whether or not you need primary legislationis unclear. It could be that a Ministerial guideline would suffice, I’m brainstorming here, jointly between the MOJ and the Home Office, so that the Police and the Prison Service, or at least the Criminal Justice systemin general makes it the norm rather than the exception, that it may not need legislation. I spoke at the Restorative Justice Conference two weeks ago and that’s basically what Isaid. Let’s make it the norm because Restorative Justice is inexpensive and it increasingly seems to be very effective but it would need, verifiable standards and procedures for it to be uniformly and consistently applied. You can’t just let it be an amateurish experiment really.”
The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) HQ
Q Inside Time is also highlighting in this issue the recent House of Commons Justice Select Committee’s Report, which shows that the cost of the NOMS HQ represents 11% of the budget for the Criminal Justice System. I estimate that’s equal to the total cost of about 100 prisons. Given the average population of a prison in England and Wales is almost 600 that’s equivalent to 60,000 prisoners.
“I think NOMS needs a very serious, hard, critical look. It has very few fans, it’s seen to be top heavy, prison focussed and unduly centralised. But don’t forget it includes all the supportive things like the Tornado Teams, all that kind of stuff and the IT costs. The extent to which NOMS is guilty as charged is perhaps exaggerated. But I think that it is too much of a central leviathan (monstrous beast) and my great vision is to have local offender management where anyone who is in the Criminal Justice System or in danger, of being in it is on the radar and can be mapped and helped and if possible influenced before they ever end up in prison.
‘Now, at the moment, I suppose this is, in a way, my mission, I sense that everything to do with offender management outside prisons is fragmented, nothing adequately brings together the housing department, social services, the police, the benefits agency, the learning skills apparatus and the adequate commissioning of all the effort by voluntary organisations which is fantastic in this country. So, some kind of streamlining which replaces the long, long list of ad hoc committees and temporary boards and mappers, wappers, zappers and everything else I think is overdue and if we can reduce that fragmentation and have a much more focussed, tailored approach to offender management at a local level I think we’re going to make a big difference.
I can tell you one thing if we’re elected on May 6th NOMS will be standing to attention on May 7th. Its ‘stand by your beds, the Minister’s coming’. You can quote that on the front page.”
Foreign National prisoners
Q Can I raise the matter about the deportation of foreign nationals? As you know there are more than 11,000 in the prison system and a leader in The Daily Telegraph suggests we are not deporting foreign national prisoners because it offends their human rights. What’s your thinking on this?
“In some cases it is about human rights, in many cases it’s about the prisoner giving inadequate details about the country of origin and their true identity. Our view is that certainly we wish to accelerate and improve deportation from prison. But bear in mind too that a lot of these people, indeed most of them are in prisons run by the Prison Service on behalf of the Borders Agency, so it’s a difficult Home Office immigration problem and largely falls on their budget. But it is absurd, well it is problematic, that we have so many foreign prisoners, I agree.”
Votes for prisoners
Q Where do you stand on the question of giving votes to prisoners?
“I’m very aware this is a legal mess at the moment and we will look carefully at what should happen and it is certainly our view that Parliament needs to address this clearly and will probably do it on a free vote – there’s a range of options. You could either get Parliament to endorse a blanket ban or you could get Parliament to say anyone with a sentence more than x number of years cannot vote but anyone with less can. Or you could set parameters and leave it to the judge to state within the sentence whether or not the prisoner can vote. Or possibly the judge might say they can start by not voting but earn the right to vote at the will of the governor, perhaps. All of these positions are defensible and logical and it needs Parliament to decide how they want to proceed. So we’d want to proceed on that.’
Your answer is very different from the Chairman of the Conservative Party who is reported as saying he is against giving prisoners the vote.
‘I think it’s clear that the European Court will require Parliament to take decisions.
How do you conduct an election with people in prison? You have to get them on the electoral register, establish their eligibility and get a ballot paper to them and back again. Well, I think the technical side of ballot paper distribution isn’t too bad. But what about the privacy of the ballot box when you need to look at them? Because usually all bits of paper are checked when they come out of prison and obviously you don’t want intimidation. So the supervision of the ballot needs a process. But critically a lot of people, I mean a massive number of people, in prison are of no fixed address so how can you register them to vote? So it’s not just a matter of a right, it’s also a matter of process and something that is practical has to be devised as well, so they are a unique voting population.
As always with these things, the devil is in the detail.”
Offending Behaviour Courses
Q Another subject prisoners write to us a lot about is the offending behaviour courses in prisons. There are serious doubts about the cost-effectiveness of offending behaviour courses. Comparisons between prisoners attending these courses and those who haven’t show no significant statistical difference in re offending.
“We are dealing with very very complicated … mental conditions here … and any evaluation is … going to be extremely difficult in dealing with a complex series of problems … often three or four problems in one person so even the most fantastic personal evaluation I suspect is going to be very difficult …”
Q For prisoners, of course, a lot depends on these courses. If you don’t get on them you can’t make progress towards release. Prisoners, particularly the majority of IPP’s remain in prison for far longer than the trial judge indicated because of lack of spaces on the courses.
“Ah, well, that’s a very important point … I mean, what happens when you get a new government? You ask difficult questions about these sort of things and you shake people out of the established practice and ask them fundamental questions which they have to justify and this is an area where … we shake the tree quite hard.
I’m a sort of ‘Che Guevara of the prison world’ .. a revolutionary … But you know, people who want another chance will be given the chance. But woe betide them if they make a mess of it.”
Postscript
Before I left his office at the House Of Commons Alan Duncan received a message to say an anti-bulling meeting was taking place in Committee Rooms 7 He laughed loudly as we speculated on who may or may not be forced to attend. The ability to see the funny side of life, I decided, was an absolute essential virtue for anyone thinking of starting a much-needed revolution in our prisons.
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